Some chefs and bartenders feel that what they do can be considered an art. Is bartending an art to you?

Jim: No! I feel that it’s a craft. The spine has some artistry to it, but at the end of the day, we create things that we reproduce and sell. I suppose there are some artists who are more commercially minded—such as Damien Hirst, Andy Warhol and Takashi Murakami, but I find that to truly be a great chef or bartender, you have to want to market and sell as badly as you want to create great things. I think the pitfall for some bartenders and chefs is when they view themselves as high artists and guests as their civil patrons. That’s not how it works.

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Jeff: A lot of people are flocking to the restaurant and bar industry from other occupations like law or Wall Street.  TV shows like Chef’s Table excite people about the creative process, but in reality, the creative process is only 5% of the job. The whole occupation has been romanticized. The creative process is the icing. The cake is customer service and manual labor.

I always see a gap between the producer of spirits and the final consumers. Guests rarely pay attention to the maker or brand of spirits that go into cocktails. How can we help bridge that gap?

Jim: More collaborations between producers and bartenders would help. For some bartenders with bigger purchasing power, they are now buying single casks and aged spirits by the barrel. It helps draw attention to the producers be it just a one-off event or an on-going program in a bar. Educating the consumers is also important - There’s a natural story to tell so we just need to tell it.

Jeff: Including the producers and brands on the menu. Just writing ‘rum’ under the cocktail ingredients is a disservice to the product we put in the drink.

Jim: I think the best way to get guests to care, is to teach them how to make cocktails! It allows them to better understand the underlying components of creating a drink. After they learn how to make a cocktail themselves, going to a bar becomes a whole different experience.

What role do bar design and ambiance play?

Jim: A big one. Back in the day, you can always hear yourself talk at bars. Now cocktail lounges are overrun and just not fun to ‘hang out’ in anymore. This is why I think acoustics are so important. I have been in some top restaurants recently where the food was great but I had such a bad experience because it was sounded so noisy.

How do Hong Kong drinkers differ from US?

Jeff: In New York, there is more of a sense of urgency. They want you to do things as quickly as possible. They want you to get things out of their way. You put their check down but you’re not ushering them out of your space, but because you respect their experience and you’re giving them the freedom to leave whenever they want.

I do worry that we seem pushy here. During the pop-up, we had to adapt our service standards to Hong Kong culture. Here, they’ll linger over their drinks and they feel like they are being rushed should we leave the bill on the table.

First things you notice when you walk in a bar?

Jim: People! The staff and the management, their appearance, their sense of urgency. Then comes the concept and the culture. 

What makes a good leader in a bar context? 

Jim: I think it’s always nice to have a mom and dad figure – communicating in different ways and giving multiple role models. This gives more influence and diversity. Mentorship and training is always crucial.

Sustainability in bars and restaurants is the buzz word on everyone’s lips now. What are your thoughts about this and are you doing anything particular?

Jim: I think ‘sustainability’ and ‘bar; are an oxymoron. Bar operations are innately unsustainable. The amount of water and electricity we use is absurd.

Jeff: We do the little things—we stopped using paper napkins, sort our trash, and use metal straws. Sustainability suggests that it’s a zero-sum equation, and there’s no way we can achieve that.

Last question: What’s a simple drink to make to impress at home?

Jim: I would say a Negroni. The ingredients don’t go bad, and the ratios have a lot of wiggle room and can be adjusted to your liking and still taste great.  It can be served on the rocks, straight up, shaken (if you really want…)

Jeff: And you can add some soda and make it an Americano. It’s easier to make than baking cookies! You can barrel age it, you can carbonate it, and it’s cheap!

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